PR & Lattes

A latte with Linda Andross, ABC, MC

August 01, 2024 • Matisse Hamel-Nelis • Season 4 • Episode 1

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In this episode, Matisse chats with Linda Andross, ABC, MC, co-owner/managing partner of independent agencies APEX PR  and ruckus Digital + Design, about all things PR today.

About Linda Andross, ABC, MC
Recognized by the G&M’s inaugural Report on Business ranking of Canada’s Top 400 Growing Independent Companies, Linda is a Co-Owner/Managing Partner of independent agencies APEX PR and ruckus Digital + Design. 

Linda brings her experience from the world of communications to the widely changing business of media, digital/social, content + influencers.  Winner of multiple national and international awards, Linda is a current board member of IABC Canada East Region, Past President of the largest communications association worldwide, IABC/Toronto, a former Chair of the Peer Advisory Committee for Seneca College’s Corporate PR program, and a founding member of the Canadian Council of PR Firms.  

Follow Linda:

X (formerly Twitter): @APEXLinda

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[Music]

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Hello and welcome back for season four of PR & Lattes, the podcast where you can fill up your cup on everything PR and communications. I'm your host Matisse Hamel-Nelis. And I am so happy to have you join me today for a brand new episode and season. Before we get started, make sure you subscribe to this podcast wherever you're listening to it to get notified each week during the season when a new episode drops. You can also subscribe to our newsletter by visiting our website PRandlattes.com. On the website, you'll also find our podcast episodes, and our amazing blogs with new ones being uploaded every Monday morning. And of course, make sure you're following us on Instagram at@PRAndLattes and on LinkedIn PR& lattes. On today's episode, I'm chatting with one of my personal PR heroes, Linda Andross, ABC MC, the co-owner and managing partner of independent agencies, APEX PR, and ruckus Digital + Design, Linda brings her vast experience from the world of communications to the widely changing business of media, digital and social media content creation and influencers. She's the winner of multiple national and international awards, and is a current board member of IABC Canada East region, a past president for IABC Toronto, the largest communications association worldwide, a former chair of the Peer Advisory Committee for Seneca College's Corporate PR program, and a founding member of the Canadian Council of PR firms. I am thrilled to be chatting with her today about the state of public relations. So grab your latte, sit back and enjoy. I am so excited for today's episode, I am here with Linda from APEX PR one of my PR heroes. Welcome, Linda.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Thank you for having me.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Oh, this is so exciting. And the fact that we're doing it in person. This is nice, amazing. Amazing. So let's dive into things. Starting off with the basics. Can you tell me and listeners a little bit about your own journey in public relations and how you got to be where you are?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Sure. So it's kind of interesting. I actually never set out to be in public relations actually didn't really know anything about it. I went to Ryerson and I took radio and television. And I don't know what I was thinking I was going to be Sandy Rinaldo, I don't know. But I ended up going to advertising. And I worked at an ad agency for two years. And I really didn't love it. And I know this is back in the days when people would actually talk to people on the subway, and we don't do that anymore. But I met a woman and we were just talking just what do you do? And she said, Hey, have you ever thought about public relations? And I was like, No. And like I said, I didn't really know a lot about it. She said, Well, I work at an agency, and we're looking for somebody. So I went, I met some people. And I thought, You know what, I can do this. So I joined at a very small agency. And I really just kind of launched myself into it, I knew nothing I didn't, I actually can't even really type properly. And that was like one of the requirements that I did not have, but I'd lied. And I've, I've just been in it ever since. And actually, before I came to apex, I worked at a number of multinational agencies. And I just kind of, you know, made my way through just looking for opportunities. And I was really fortunate to work with a number of women who won, they were so gracious, they taught me everything they knew. And it's something that I've always kept in mind. But I also realized that you know, the only person that moves you forward as yourself, and you have to look at opportunities. And you know, here I am now like, you know, I own apex with my, you know, co managing partner can. And people often say like, how did you get there? And it isn't by just waiting for someone to tap me on the shoulder, you kind of just always have to be like watching and waiting and saying, like, how do I grow as a professional? Where do I want to be? You know, really, you got to focus on your career like you, you gotta at least have a little bit of a plan if you want to get somewhere.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, that's an excellent point. And something I always tell my students as well is that when it comes to public relations, it's not a check in check out throughout the day, you know, it's constantly learning building, you're building your knowledge base and building your skill set. And all that and, and it's something that in for some students are like, "Oh, that's not what I expected. I just thought I go in, get to play with social, right. And then that I'm done for the day." And it's like, oh, it's so much more than that.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

For sure. And, you know, I especially think as you move up through your career, I think sometimes it's easy as a senior person to become a little bit complacent. And you don't push yourself and you don't challenge yourself because you're like, what if I fail, but I think that that is kind of what's great about this career is you get those opportunities to do it and you should be trying to constantly otherwise it really I think would be a very boring job.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

It would be and that's the fun thing about

PR and I always say this:

every day is something new and different.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

If there were two days that were the same, something's wrong with what I'm doing in my day to day.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Right, right. And I just think it's so great. I mean, you meet so many amazing people, and you do have the opportunity to learn so many different things.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Exactly. And there's so many people to learn from Yeah, like yourself. Yeah. Amazing. So how do you position both yourself and the agency as thought leaders in the PR industry? What platforms? Are you? Okay? So, then we really ask that question. So how do you position yourself and Apex as thought leaders in the PR industry? And what platforms or mediums have you found to be the most effective for this purpose? Because we get that question all the time, like, well, I want to position myself as the go to person, but I have no idea how to do that.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

You know, it's so interesting. I mean, I think for myself, personally, I never probably still don't really think of myself as quote, unquote, a thought leader, I think if anything, you know, it's more, I think of myself as someone who might have information or learnings that might be of value to somebody, and you can't keep it a secret, if something worked or you know, something that will help somebody else along their path or journey, you should share it. And I, you know, I look for, you know, or I'm fortunate enough to, like, get opportunities like this, I mean, you get opportunities to, like, meet people and talk about what might be of interest to other people, or how else you know, there might be a little nugget that someone can take away. I mean, definitely, I've been super involved with, you know, like, IABC. So platforms, as per se are really just, you know, I just look for opportunities, where I can either get together and meet people, and how can I help, whether it's, you know, podcasts or, you know, IABC we do our new member get togethers, you know, I attend, you know, people invite me to attend gatherings where I can speak about either my business journey, or my own personal journey, you know, if I'm writing something for different, like social channels, where I think it might be a value for people on the APEX side, you know, I guess it's somewhat similar in the sense of, you know, we're looking for opportunities to share either who we are as an organization, what we might be able to do to help people who are in the industry, getting into the industry growing in the industry, clients that might be looking for, you know, an agency that is aligned to where you know, the way they're thinking or where they want to go. So it's not so much that we're like, oh, we only, you know, use these platforms or whatever, it's really more like, what we think is gonna be a good place to, like, get our message out there. But also, sometimes it's, you know, I look to my staff, like, where do you guys think we should be where, you know, or, you know, people are coming in, like, where did you come through? How did you get here? You know, how can we, you know, leverage that. And I think it's one of those things, where if you're just always like, we only do this? Yeah, I mean, some things, you're just, you know, it's changing.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Of course.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

I mean, it's like, if it's not working anymore, you shouldn't use it.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. There's something interesting that you said that you try to share as much information as possible. Do you find and this is based on a conversation I had with one of my friends recently in the industry, that there's a lot of gatekeeping

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Oh, yeah.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

How do you counteract that? Like, I know, you, you speak wherever you can you invite folks to, you know, like, today, I could just chat with you about all this incredible stuff. But how do you try to change that focus and try to shift that that purview within our industry of saying stop with the gatekeeping? Everyone, you know, everyone has a space?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah, you know, it's, it's really hard and sometimes kind of disappointing. I mean, I have been super fortunate in my career. And, you know, when, especially when we do things like, whatever, like our IABC, you know, new member chats and coffees, you hear a lot about gatekeeping you hear a lot about? And, you know, I feel like it's sort of my responsibility to exactly like you said, find those ways around it, find those people that, you know, how can someone get into this organization? Who do I know there? Who can I kind of bring my own limited resources to bear to try and get past it? How can I use APEX, you know, whether it's something like, you know, someone can't get into the industry because they lack some experience. Okay, how can I help in that way? Can I bring someone in and it may be even something so simple as like, I need to show you how MRP works, or I need to show you how to use this influencer tool, because then you'll be able to put on your resume and get out there. So I really look and I guess I'm one of those people that's really not fussed about going to other people to say you need to help us.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. I love that. I love that and it's something that for me anyways, when I look at what you're doing, and I'm speaking with my friend about this as well, I use you as an example, and that we're all in this together. At the end of the day, we're all learning these new tools, we're all learning, you know how to be, quote, unquote, thought leaders how to do whatever we need to do. Why are we just trying to be like, Well, I'm the only one who can do this.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Right. And there's room for everybody. And I think that that's the thing is, it's not a others, you know, we have too many people, we can't have any more. And you want to be bringing people into the industry who think differently, look differently, act differently. I mean, again, your business is going to fail. If you're like, we always do it this way, or we only have these people. Plus, I do I mean, karma. I know that sounds very woowoo. And I talk about and I'm sure some people I roll, but if someone has helped you, you need to help someone else have that's like, it's like an unofficial rule in the industry. And if you don't, you're going to get it in some way, shape or form. I really believe that.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Oh, so do I, why 100% 100%. One thing about the gatekeeping that I found really interesting recently was somebody reached out to me saying why do you write articles about accessibility? And why do you share your quote unquote, secret sauce with folks? They're gonna then start doing it. I'm like, good. That's the whole point. Exactly. Let's be more inclusive. Let's change the way we're doing things like I that's my whole philosophy, like, let me teach you to do it.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yes.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Versus me just saying, This is how you do it. But I'm not going to tell you how.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Totally I mean, it's like your podcast. I mean, you have lots of different people on it. And you want people to think I have an opportunity to be on that podcast, not? Oh, well, I don't want anyone to come after me.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, like that's ridiculous. Exactly. Exactly. There's room for everyone.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yes, yes.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

No need for gatekeeping. So moving things along, just changing gears a little bit. digital evolution, right. When I was a student, we didn't have aI conversations, we didn't have TikTok. And funnily enough, when I was a student, it was she's young, just when I was a student was actually coming for a guest lecturer, Jennifer was giving it to Durham College students. And I fell in love with PR. And APEX is where I say, I truly fell in love. And I was second year in my program. And I was like, Okay, well, am I still certain this is where I want to go. And your team just, I fell in love fully fell in love. I was like, This is my career, this is what I want to do. But like I said, when I started, no Tiktok, no AI, no, anything like that. So how has yourself and the agency been able to navigate these new evolutions, this new evolution? And are there any concerns about AI, sort of, as people are saying are, they're going to take over our jobs?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Right, so it's so interesting, I just was on a training session yesterday, that was all about AI, and just different things. And, you know, stepping back, the industry is always changing. And, you know, you can fight it, or you can figure out how you can use it to your advantage. I also do believe that it keeps your mind malleable. It's not like you have to use everything. That's not it. But you have to be open to what is coming, how it might work. What are the benefits, of course, like anything, there's going to be risks or things that you're going to, you know, be concerned about, you know, certainly on the AI front, I mean, ethics, right? I mean, we have some clients who are, you know, slow adopters, and they are not using it and not using it, at least at this point. And you have to articulate every single thing that you're doing, if we're writing a pitch, we have to tell them if we use AI to do the research like you. And I'm fine with that. I mean, transparency is better. You know, a lot of journalists will ask you, when you're sending over something, how was this generated? They need to know so that they can go back and tell their editors. And I think that that should just be as it is, it's like asking for any source.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Where's the source coming from? I think the thing is, is just to ensure that people who are coming into the industry understand why ethics are important, why we need to be able to use these tools in a manner that is, you know, respectful, transparent, and that understand where you know, the clients or other people are coming from, because that's really important. And certainly, you know, we're always looking to see like, how can we, you know, simplify certain things. Our jobs are never going away. I mean, I firmly...at least not in my lifetime. I mean, you still need someone to do the strategic thinking you still need someone to think through what might happen. So in this training session the other day, they were showcasing some music that had been developed AI wise, and how this company had, you know, put it in and they had used it for a campaign? Well, of course, you know, as a PR person, my first question was about copyright. And that's exactly what happened. They got slammed, and they tried to go back and say, well, we use this tool, this AI tool, they're responsible, but actually in the fine print, they're not responsible. And so it ended up costing them like hundreds of 1,000s of dollars. And again, not that, but that's our jobs, our jobs are to think through what could happen, AI is not going to tell you, Oh, if you use this image, 5,000 things are gonna happen. And, you know, also, you know, the creativity, it's a tool to help you potentially with that, but it still requires someone to be thinking, and actually, I think if anything, you know, as people coming into the industry on the AI front, you know, the schools or wherever people are going need to be helping people to think strategically, what are the questions I'm asking, am I getting the information that I need? And so, you know, I welcome it. Because I think it's like anything, you know, if I don't have to whatever, do a, you know, maybe a first cut of a media list or something great, perfect. But it still needs that I.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, for sure. What I find I use it for is ideation when I have writer's block right into like, this is what I'm kind of thinking, give me a skeleton of something. So it kind of kick starts my brain to getting into what I need to be writing. And even then I'll look at the skeleton and be like, No, that doesn't that No, doesn't make sense, or no to this or you still need that. Exactly that I to figure that out for exactly. For sure. Do you think that when it comes to AI, the ethics around it have been are enough? So far, I know IABC put out their statement?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

No, I don't. I don't only because I think it's one of those things where it's evolving so quickly, that it's, you know, and I certainly understand it's, you have the ethics, and then everything changes three months later, and it's still the same. And it's, it's just, it's something that I think you always have to keep an eye on and look and say, You know what, we had this, this has changed, or "Wow, we learned something here." It's got to be sort of like fluid ethics, not in the sense of like, oh, well, that's now you can do this. But more just as its evolving, and what we're seeing, you know, how are we learning from this? I don't know, you know, ethics guidelines.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

You know, what one does as a good communicator?

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

A good person.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. One thing I have found, at least as an instructor, is that some students rely really heavily on you know, using AI to create their content, right, share it with you. And something like Canadian Press style doesn't get caught. Yes. Right. And they're like, but but it wrote it into make sense. And like, but we're, we're using Canadian Press, you need to know how to do these things. Well, doesn't AI know that? No, no, no, not at all. Right. And maybe in time, it will and it'll help you know, quickly. If you're you put in something, can you check for CP or whatever, or AP if you're in the States, but at the end of the day, that human eye that that heart, really right.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

100% And I think that that is exactly it, there's got to be feeling and emotion in what we do. And you can't get that, you know, good start. Yeah, definitely, you know, leads people to other like, you know, brainstorming ideas or things we wouldn't have thought of. But you still need to have the person behind whatever you're doing.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. And it's all in the power of the prompts that you use as well. Yeah, definitely. Right. I was playing around with it when it first, you know, ChatGPT first came out, and I just said, Write a pitch about this. And it gave me like an advertorial. I'm like, that's an I wouldn't send that to media, you know, what you're talking about. And my husband said, you know, try these types of prompts. And then it kind of created something more in line with the pitch, but even then it was go back rework, it, at least gave you an idea. But, you know, it's not something I use, it was just to play around with it. But it was really interesting to see that it's really in the power of the prompts. And perhaps that something that, you know, is should be more of a focus on within the education space, in terms of this tool is here to stay. But how do we use it properly as practitioners?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah. And you know, I think it's interesting what you said, because I also think, sort of like when, you know, the rise of social, you know, people would have their community managers and they would be, you know, nothing wrong with people coming right out of school, but they were people that had no experience exactly. And it's somewhat the same with this is how and someone give a prompt if they don't even know what they're talking about, you know, they haven't had work experience. So it is one of those things where it's not just like, oh, well, you're young, you can do this. It takes everybody it takes all of us to, like put our thinking together as to, you know, yeah. What are we asking of this tool?

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Exactly. And I think what I find with AI is that it sort of leveled the playing field that no matter if you're a seasoned practitioner, or you're just out of school, we're all learning the same.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Exactly

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Right? It's not like, well, it's social media, you you quote unquote, know it better, because we're young, which was the assumption before now it's everyone the same playing field. Let's figure it out together.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah, exactly.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

So from your unique perspective, how has as we were talking about social media? How has that revolutionized the traditional PR practices? And what strategies should PR practitioners adopt to leverage it fully?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Well, I mean, I think with you know, social and digital, I'm it. If I think of just the traditional PR, like, when I started in the industry, right, it was like, when you came to an agency, you wrote, you, you know, you pitched media, you did events, but it lacked colour. And, you know, with social and digital, you now are in a place where you really can do a 360 campaign. I mean, anybody can.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And I might be going off on a tangent here, so bear with me, but you know, PR, what I love about it is it has super evolved. You know, there isn't any more in my mind the same sort of like, oh, PR people only do this and advertising people do this. And marketing people do this, it really has blended it all together. And that's what I think digital brought. Yes. And that's what I personally love about the business is, you know, we are in a place that we can create an entire campaign for a client and show them everything, this is exactly what it's going to look like, from you know, your flyers to this to that to this. And it has just given us, I believe, a lot more integration with our clients. It has upped PR, I think before might have had a little bit of a, you know, like, oh, what value does it bring to the business? Yeah, I feel like now we know what value it brings to the business. And if we, you know, before we had this, we did struggle a little bit to show our strategic thinking really, across the business spectrum. And I don't know if that makes sense. But I think it's just, it's revolutionized PR in the sense of, if you want to go into PR, you have to know and understand what digital does, you don't have to be an expert. But you our clients expect at, at least at APEX, that everybody here for in a meeting can talk at least the basics of paid or the content strategy, or you know, these are the different, you know, platforms that we're going to use for these reasons, and how it aligns with what we're doing from, you know, a media pitch or an event or all that sort of stuff. It does require a lot more of your brain. But I think it also allows us to be a lot more creative, integrated. I personally think the business has become a lot more interesting.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And I like not having I didn't want to work in a sandbox.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

I you know, and I think our clients hire us to bring our best thinking for their business and not, oh, I'm just over here, I only do these four things.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

I always I always struggled with that. I always found it very difficult. So I personally think that, you know, it's really made our industry a lot more interest. Interesting. But also, again, going back to it invites a lot more people to the party.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Because you can bring a lot more people with different thinking to the table, because we have a lot more deliverables that you know, clients wouldn't have asked us for before.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

I love that and how do you manage? So using the example of Threads when it came out? Everyone's sort of jumped on that bandwagon. It hasn't been used as much as people had hoped or hadn't thought, how do you navigate when a new piece of technology or a new platform comes out with a client who's like, "Oh, but everyone's doing it? Let's do it as well." How do you navigate that? What could be a touchy situation?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Right? And I mean, it happens all the time. And you know, so there's kind of two things one, what are the things that I always say internally is that I want us people here at the office to try things, even if we're never going to use them for ourselves. But I don't believe that we can pitch a client on something if we've never, like, just think back to like, way back when when like TikTok came out.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

If nobody had ever done one can't pitch it to a client, and even if we're terrible at it, which of course mean, obviously there were a lot of people who are really good at it, not me. But it is interesting. I mean, again, I'm gonna slightly date myself, I'm gonna use Facebook as an example. Okay? Everybody, every client have to have a Facebook account had to have a Facebook account. And part of it was that again, every client, you know, suffers from a me too, they've got one, we have to have one. But one of the things that I found is if you can bring to the clients, some facts, yeah, your audience is not here. And so we had a particular client who had they were adamant they had to have a Facebook account. And clients I think, also don't understand always the time commitment.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

The resources that you have to put to keeping things alive. And you know, their target audience, you know, when we show them, they're not here, and they won't be coming here.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

So we're going to go through, you know, the motions of having a Facebook account for like, 100 people, and they're not the people that are buying your stuff, and they're not the people that are going to engage, and we're gonna have to do all this work to keep it alive. You know, I think it was still a bit of a hard pill for them to swallow, but they were like, oh, oh, okay. And I often say to clients, you know, when clients will make general sweeps of all moms are on this platform. Okay, well, I'm a mom, and I'm not on that platform.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And so you, you just have to get people to challenge their expectations. And I think that that is also where, you know, in general, you know, it's reminding people of, you know, especially, you know, clients, like who are your customers? Yeah, where are they coming from? And sometimes they may be in a place that you don't expect. So you really have to go and find, you know, where these people are. And it might be a platform that you never thought you're gonna use, you know, like Pinterest. Nobody talks about Pinterest anymore. But we have a lot of clients were really invested in it still. Yes, that's where their customers are.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, exactly.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And in, you know, when everybody was everybody, when there was, you know, some people moving away from Pinterest, it's not quite the shiny ball anymore. You know, they were like, Oh, we don't want to use it anymore. Because since I was not using it, I'm like, but you're still seeing business traction, right? They're like, yes. Okay, well, and they're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Because if we leave it, we're leaving these people behind.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

So following the shiny ball isn't always the best idea. But sometimes it is.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Exactly, yeah. How do you deal with clients who maybe say, you know, when you're talking about target audience, like, but everybody's my target audience, I want everybody to purchase my right

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Well, usually we try to the best of our abilities, actually get that info and actually really drill down to you know, who, who it is. Because unless you've got, you know, $100 million to spend, you can't afford to have everybody as your target audience. And I think, you know, some clients are really great. I mean, we do a lot of work with Walmart, and they're excellent about, you know, who their target audience is, how much you know, that we call it, you know, putting things in the basket? Yeah. And, you know, using that knowledge with other clients to say, okay, you know, this is how we approach it with this client. Helps them, you know, because I get it, nobody wants to miss out on someone, but when you show them, you know, the lack of, you know, understanding and the money that's going to be wasted. They're pretty quick to be like, oh, yeah, okay, that makes no sense.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, yeah, that's very true. And I think, especially new businesses, they're like, but we just want our name out there and everyone to see it. But if you're able to help them, figure out that target audience, it'll come back tenfold for them versus we'll spread everything, just to meet everybody where they're at.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

So, Pat McNamara who started apex and when I worked with Pat, she would always say you can jump off the CN Tower, but I'm not sure people are going to run to buy, you know, the product, just because like you had this like, you jumped off the CN Tower.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And it's so true. I mean, you can do something, but if it's so broad, you know, no one's gonna remember, you know what they were supposed to do.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

It'd be like, Oh, my God, that was an amazing stunt.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Who was it by?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Right? Once they're not running to buy your product.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. When we're thinking about media, we talked a little bit about this. Things have changed so quickly, particularly in the traditional media space, with the layoffs, things moving more towards social that sort of thing. How have you in your agency helped build and maintain those relationships with media as things have evolved so much, and how do you stand out from the crowd given that some people say that PR is now becoming so saturated with different practitioners?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Well, you know, we have been fortunate that I mean, we've always had really great media relationships in you know, I mean, the key is relationships. I mean, I know, okay, this could sound

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. old school, but we still read the newspaper, the few that are still left. You know, we still watch the news. And you would be shocked at the number of people that, you know, I interview who don't follow any news. Yeah, and I mean, I understand because, you know, there's a lot of other, you know, things that people can watch. But you have to keep those relationships, and you really have to, you know, watch, you know, who's covering different beats, or what's happening, you know, you know, with a particular media outlet, where are people going? So it actually is, if anything a lot more harder, you know, we joke with our clients, but the reality is, is that you have to have those relationships, you have to work them all the time. And that doesn't mean that you're constantly pitching somebody, it could also just be, you know, connecting with, you know, the various journalists to find out like, what are you covering? What do you what do you think you're gonna be covering in, you know, like, it's got a, it's got to be to a two-way relationship. And also understanding, like, what else do they have to do? Because it's not just a matter of like, they're not just either, you know, writing a story or, you know, taping something, they're doing five other things at the same time. Right.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And how can you be helpful?

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

But I also think, you know, it requires a lot more the word strategy, because we use it so often, but it is strategic thinking. Negotiation is so key. And that's why I find will get you in your people in they, you know, they're like, oh, my gosh, you know, I'm ready to do media relations. You know, here, we want you to really learn the media, we want you to learn the approach, because if we have one shot with the global mail, no offense, but I'm not going to take it on someone who's been in the business six months.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And, you know, we are really fortunate because, you know, with the industry changing a bit, you know, you have people who are coming into the market from other countries who they they've done media relations, maybe in another country, but they understand the approach the you know, how to go about it. But it really is something that, you know, we have to constantly educate our clients of like, that journalist at the Global & Mail has 1,000 people pitching them today.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Right.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And to get your story in, yeah, is a coup. But it takes a lot to do that. And I almost think now, that is actually one of the hardest things to do.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

It takes a lot more practice. Yeah, I believe.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

I think you're a specialist. You're not...You're not a generalist, no, you are a specialist. And because there are so it's so nuanced, especially with how many changes in the how quickly it's evolving nowadays, I think you become you have to be a specialist, if you're going to say I want to do media relations.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yep, definitely. And you really have to have a good sense of what it is you're pitching and to go to your clients and say, This is what it's going to take to get this story, this news article, whatever, you know, to be on this particular program, because it is across the board. I mean, we're seeing it right. Every, you know, no, no more city line, no more this right. So all those relationships, but it's also looking and saying, you know, as those media shift, where are they going? What are they doing? What are the new mediums that people are also exploring? And you know, how can we be a part of that?

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And not again, just you know, you can't just be like, Oh, well, we only follow these. It's like, you really got to be open to all the new stuff that's coming.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, exactly. I think one of the big things has come out of that is the influencer. Not trend because it's here to stay.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

But it's the, you know, your nano micro influencer, your micro, your macro influencer and how they can also promote it. So it might not be your traditional media, but they have the followers and engagement that can help get your product out there. So how do you manage that side of things where your clients like, but we want to be in the Globe & Mail, but they might have more impact with an influencer instead?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's always a challenge, especially, you know, if a client I think a lot of times it comes down to finding out what why is the client asking for that? What's their motivation? You know, example would be you know, we worked with this clothing company, and they always wanted to be in the Globe & Mail. But the people buying their product, we're not reading the Globe & Mail.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And you know, once you kind of start to like, peel the onion and find out where this is coming from you understand, oh, okay, so your executive team, so then we could come up with a strategy to be like, Okay, let's two prong, this executive team, this is a story, we're going to pitch, it's not going to be about the newest pair of jeans, you know, it's going to be this. And then on this side, we're gonna go to the influencers to the people that are going to push these new pair of jeans.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And help them sell in that strategy. Because then everybody's happy. Yeah. As opposed to even if you were lucky enough to get a new pair of jeans in the globe. Oof, not sure that the people that you want, buying them are going to be there.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

But definitely, I mean, influencers have changed the game and a lot of ways, right. And, like the Birds Papaya is now doing her own clothing line with Reitmans.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

So I mean, they're turning into like brands. Yeah, some of them, some of them.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And I think that, you know, in some respects, it's been great, because, you know, you do have, you know, all different sort of, like, types of influencers, and you're able to get a story across to the audiences that you're trying to connect with. Yeah. And I think that, you know, a lot of influencers, you know, of course, in the beginning, probably was a little bit, you know, less polished. But now, I mean, it is a business, and they take it seriously, and they understand the ask and the requirement, but you are able to get to people that you might not have been able to before.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, and I think recently something that comes to mind is the Stanley cup, not the hockey Stanley Cup, but yeah, Stanley tumbler, were the woman who happened to have somewhat of a following that a massive following on tick tock, her car burned down in the Stanley, the tumbler was fine. And that just saw their sales skyrocket. And you think, Okay, well, you can't replicate that type of content, but an influencer or somebody who's on social media sharing that can do that for you. Right. So I think for a lot of brands, also, I, it also comes down to managing expectation with influencer relations, like, oh, we want the biggest the best, the, you know, whoever, but maybe the engagement for what they're looking for, isn't there? So how do you manage that sort of relationship as well?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's difficult. And I, I know, people are going to I roll up, when you're, again, you're like, Okay, well, you have to just have a conversation.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Of course.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And explain what the client is going to get. Also, it all, you know, it's really also just pushing clients to kind of be open minded to working with different types of influencers. Because, again, you know, a client may have something in their mind, but the business results will be better served by being, you know, looking at all different kinds of influencers that they may have not even heard of, or have ever been exposed to. One of the things that we've tried to do a lot is just get our clients to actually meet some of the influencers, and build a relationship with them or to be like, Oh, okay, now I understand what this person is trying to do. And how could fit with my brand or Wow, yeah, I don't think that's the right person for us at this moment.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

But you know, I really wanted to work with them. And it's like anything, you know, things change, a brand sort of changes. So the influencers that maybe you worked with before, are working the same way you thought they would before.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

I do think on the influencer front and just, you know, digital, and social in general. You really have to always be on I think we do more monitoring and watching.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

It's kind of sounds a bit creepy. But then you ever have, because when you want to look for an opportunity, like the Stanley Cup, yeah. Or, you know, if there's an influencer that, you know, sometimes we'll we'll find people who just love a brand.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And they would never been on our radar. Or people who are not even like they're just kind of regular Joes.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

That you would like to work with.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Because they're going to run a marathon and you think they'd be perfect for, you know, the New Balance shoes that you're working on right now. But they're not somebody who does that for a living.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

But they're super authentic to what you want. Yes. And then there's other times where you just have to watch and you're like, Okay, that's just not resonating.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

You know, it was a good try. And that I think is you know, certainly not everything's going to work out. You're going to try stuff and it's going to be like okay, well, they whatever they just didn't connect the audience the way you thought they were going to.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, for sure. And how about the rise of pay for play both from influencer and traditional media. I'm noticing a bit more as I'm doing more research on this, how have you in the team been able to sort of navigate that and really provide that authentic third party experience and perspective, I should say, versus saying, Okay, so here's X amount, and the product now do something nice for us. How, how is that? How have you guys been managing?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like anything, you know, of course. I mean, again, you want authenticness. And I find, you know, the pay for play thing, it kind of ebbs and flows. So, you know, you'll go through a period where it's like, yes, everybody is, you know, in that space, I it actually doesn't bother me, because I, I look at these individuals as businesses, yes. And so I understand that they are running a business, just like if I paid to put something on Global TV. I think the challenge is to ensure that it is authentic, that it isn't, you know, something where it's gonna look weird or off. And, you know, I mean, obviously, I'm not as in, you know, involved in the influencer front as like some other people, my staff, but I always look to see what is it that the influencer has been working on? So, you know, I don't want to, you know, put my client, you know, to say, Okay, here's someone we're going to work with, and they've literally lurched from brand to brand. And it's like, okay, this is Walmart's week, next week as Loblaws. We then it's No Frills. Like, I don't want to do that. That to me just doesn't it doesn't feel right.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

And the audience is smart, they're gonna catch on and be like, but didn't you just say last week, this was your favourite store.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

100%. And I also don't expect everybody to be like, unreasonably like, oh, my gosh, best brand ever. If, if we feel that we can make a case that this is a reasonable place to put a brand, and it doesn't seem weird. And you know, both sides can come to an agreement as to what we're looking for. Awesome.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

But I never, you know, and I'm usually we just, you know, I know, there's definitely some clients who don't, they don't want to pay.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah,

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And I don't think that that's fair to, like, giving somebody whatever a pair of shoes is not paying somebody and you are asking them for something.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

I mean, me personally. And you know, usually we counsel our clients of like this business, and it's better if you can think of it that way. Because then if you need to go back and ask for changes, it's in the contract.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Nobody feels weird about it. Nobody has bad feelings. As opposed to I gave you a pair of shoes. I want you to do X Y Z.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

That I just, I can never get down with that.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, no, I'm with you on that one, for sure. For sure.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

It's just weird.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

And what you were saying about, you know, the brand uninfluenced, or maybe going from one brand this week to another brand. The next week. In the beauty space. There's a particular tick talker who's getting called out for that, like, this is the beauty routine that I use for this week. And the next one, this is the one that I've always used and the following. It's a whole new one ever. And so she's starting to get called out in terms of but what is it? Which one? Is it? Or are you just jumping on brand to brand to brand or promoting a brand and hopes for a partnership?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

For sure. And some clients might be fine with that. I mean, I think it really boils down to you being very clear with the client, the pros and cons, what they're gonna get out of it. And if they're like, if this person is going to this is our week, and we know we're gonna get x, we're fine with it. Yeah, that's a business decision. You know, I'm you know, but it does require doing the research, you want to look and see, you know, what's the history of this person? You know, has it been easy to work with them all of that kind of stuff, or even pay for play? You know, a lot of times like with TV segments, they'll do a roundup of something and you have to pay to be on around up. Again. It's what are you going to get out of it? If your product is being mentioned for 10 seconds? Is it worth it? Maybe it is, I don't know. But you just have to kind of move away from like, we love our product to being just realistic about what you're going to get out of it.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. And strategic.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Totally.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

It's all about strategy when it comes to PR, particularly when you are trying to promote a product or a brand. Because if you are just saying we'll throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. It's wasted money, but if you like really thinking it through, then you're going to stretch that dollar out as much as possible. And yeah, you'll see the return.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Yeah, yeah.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Okay, so APEX. I like I said, I love this agency. I love following everything and all the amazing stuff that you and the team do. How do you and your partner happen to create and foster this positive productive agency that is inclusive and so welcoming?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Well, okay, one, I'm going to just say, I've drank the Kool Aid, and I love it here. So I mean, there might be some eye rolls when people are listening to this, but so I'm like, I'm obviously super biased. You know, one of the things that I think Ken and I have really focused on is, when we talk about culture, the culture isn't like, me and Ken, because like, We're old. The culture is what the staff bring to the table.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And it is always evolving.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

You know, I don't I don't want you know, can I never want it to be a place where it was like, Well, can I like this? Are we, you know, want it to be like this, because otherwise we'd all be sitting at home, reading a book, like I'm a boring person, I want the staff to feel that they have a voice, you know, that they drive what happens in this place? Right. And that it is, you know, as great as they want it to be, of course, you know, we're a part of it, and we're involved, but I want it to be bottom up.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

With the topping this, like we're providing the support to make this this great place. Right? Not, oh, it's going down. And I do think that that is a little bit of a change. Because, you know, the things that you know, the younger people want to do, or how they want to work, or all of that kind of stuff is different. And you know, I want maybe it's pie in the sky. But you know, I want people to come to work thinking, You know what, I really love being here. You know, some days, sure, some days are harder. But I like being here. I like that I can bring forward a suggestion or an idea. And I'm heard, we kind of call it majority rule. So you know, if somebody wants to do something, if the majority of people say yes, then that's a yes.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And I mean, I kind of think that that's pretty great. Because I never wanted it to just be about like, what Ken and I would do, because like I said, I mean, we're at a different stage in our lives. Right. And so, you know, you're not always thinking of what someone who's 20 might be thinking.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

But we are super fortunate. And it does take work, though. It does. You know, I think that people think, oh, you know, it's just people come in, and they get on with it. But you really have to, you know, it's just having this conversation with somebody, you know, see people if to see them where and I really I know no one was talking about the pandemic. But I really realized, you know, when we went through the pandemic, how much not seeing people hurt people?

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And how, especially for our junior staff, I mean, they learned nothing, because people were so tired. And you really had to see people. And so we're like, we work hybrid. So we're here Tuesdays and Thursdays, but obviously people come in, like if a client's in they come in. But it's been great. I mean, we love it. And I think if anything, we're more respectful and appreciative of each other, for everything that we've been through. And also where people are coming from, if you're like, not in a good space, it's like how can we support and help and genuinely want to be there for everybody? And not? Oh, well, best of luck.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. that that's that that's all anybody's really looking for, when they're when they're looking for a new position. They want that there's to be seen, they want to be met where they are, and they want to have that opportunity to speak their mind in a safe environment. So I think, like I said, I absolutely love it here. So that's fantastic. Fantastic. How do you incorporate social corporate social responsibility into what APEX does? And how does that trickle down into your clients work and campaigns?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

So, it's definitely a big focus for Ken and I, and something that we talk a lot about with staff and it kind of goes, I think, in line with, you know, again, a word that like, culture probably overused a lot. Because we both do feel a huge responsibility to give back on many different levels. Because we have been so fortunate and we really look to our staff to to say, like, help us because people do come from different backgrounds, and they've had different struggles and you know, going back to like gatekeeping, and all of that kind of stuff. So we really were involved in a lot of different things like for the last few years we've been involved with...It's called The Black summer student program with the Toronto District School Board. So it's, you know, one of the things that Ken and I really wanted to lean more into is getting students from high schools to know that PR is a great career, because I don't know about anybody else. But when I was in high school, like nobody ever I mean, again, that was 100 years ago, but no one ever said anything about this.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And actually, we have a couple of people out today, because the City of Toronto actually does a number of sort of like educational days. And so we actually have people out today who are going to these different to talk about, this could be a career for you.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Amazing.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And bringing people in. So in our summer student program, you know, we usually bring in two or three students, it just gives them an opportunity to look at and see what we're doing, to kind of follow people and see like, this could be something it actually, so we've done it, this will be I think, our third or fourth year. And I know, people may not think this is a big success, but we've actually two people actually went into PR.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

I love that!

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Right? So amazing. And one person went into graphic design, which I think is still a win, definitely. So it's really great. You know, we try to every quarter just hold like a little bit of like a, like an open call of anybody who's interested in PR to come in to me, you know, some people who are in it. And it's not just senior people, it's like top to bottom, because I believe there's value in meeting other people who are new in their career.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

How did you get in? What did you do to get past X Y Z? You know, we're really involved in like other things like NABS, which is just sorry, in our industry, here, I am, like smashing up things because my hands are moving, which is a habit, but also really supporting anything that our staff are involved in. Because, once again, you want people to feel that the company supports whatever social initiatives that they want to be a part of. And that means either we're using our skills like to design stuff, to hold events to, you know, do some media relations, or you know, Ken does a lot of media training. So we'll bring in groups that need to be media trained, because they're gonna go out and do X, Y, Z, so anything that we can use, we try to use it. And, again, it's not perfect, but it's the, you know, if we can use either money or skills are people, we're always trying to do that, right. And it really does trickle trickle down also to clients, because a lot of our clients are involved in different things. And we do a lot of pro bono stuff for them. So if we find out, you know, the client, like our DoorDash client, you know, they've got a bunch of things that they're doing pro bono. We're like, how can we help, and we will design staff, we will, you know, send people to it, I just had two of my staff that went over the weekend to work on a pro bono thing with one of our clients. And the staff are just as committed to it's not not saying you must do this, because we always talk about the things that you know, we would like to focus on, but we're never like, you must do this. And quite frankly, I look to Ken and I and our other senior team to lead by example,

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Oh, for sure.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

we're doing it. Or you know, you need a day off to go and do your volunteer thing. You're packing at the food bank. Great, you're there. But to me, that's like, that should be like low hanging things that every company should be doing.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. I absolutely love that, particularly the Toronto District School Board. And it's just so great, because especially when it comes to PR and communications, what you see on TV is not a PR.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

No!

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Right? So getting that opportunity to really understand or it's not really talked about as a career. Right? So I remember when I when I first thought of public relations, it was my husband who said you should do PR, and I legitimately looked at him and said personal records. I don't want to go into HR, right? And he's like, I don't know how you connect those two things, but no public relations and communications. And then I thought Samantha Jones from Sex in the City. And he's like, No, again. Oh, right. There's this misconception as to what we do as PR practitioners or communications professional. So I think what you're doing with the District School Board is fantastic to open people's minds to there is a career if you love to writing love to be creative. And the fact that some students took that on and went into PR it's amazing.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Well, and I think too, you know, we're talking about diversity. You need to show people they will see themselves.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yes.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Right? And I mean, that is like we got a long way to go on that front. But even if you can, in a small way to show people that there are other people who can help you who will support you, or at least, you know, be like, Okay, this is how or another path to get to where you want to go. I think that that's super important. And I mean, it is our responsibility. And quite frankly, like, it is also Canada. Yes. Like, there's a lot of diversity and we need to have it.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yep. And it provides so many new perspectives and ideas. And, you know, it's not just like, Oh, I'm some people look at as the world checking a box, it's more than checking about the impact it's going to have on what you're able to produce and what you're able to do, because you have these incredible ideas and perspectives that are coming in that you didn't have before.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

100%. I mean, I truly believe if you don't, your business will not thrive.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

And you will also not have what, like a well rounded group.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah, that's very, very true. This has been an absolutely amazing conversation, Linda, I have to say. But to wrap things up, because I know you're also very, very busy. And I would spend, like all day here just chatting with you, let's let's be real. But I want to know, what legacy do you hope to leave with APEX PR, and in the PR profession overall?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

I mean, I think legacy is such a heavy word. I mean, I think it goes back to again, I really just want to be remembered as somebody who, you know, was able to get a little bit teary, you know, use what I have to help move people forward. You know, one of the things that we always say, here at APEX, you know, we're a practitioner shop, Ken, and I still have clients, we still do the work, we're not, you know, pushing paper around. And you know, we focus on to the best of our abilities, developing people, so that they can go off and have amazing career somewhere else and help somebody else. And I just, you know, if I had to leave any legacy would just be that, in the end, there's going to be people out there who were like, that person helped me, I'm going to help this person who's going to help this person and on and on. And that apex is always remembered as a place that, you know, people think, oh, yeah, like, I had exposure, or I worked there, or, you know, they were just good people. I know that sounds so like, weird.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

No.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

But that you just, you know, you you gave back whatever you had or could give back.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Yeah. And what are you most excited about for PR?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Oh, gosh, I mean, I just think I mean, the industry is changing so much, which I know this probably sounds weird, but I really love it. I mean, I love it. Because I see so many interesting people getting into the business that are so different than me, their mindset is different than me. And yet I am so inspired by what they bring to the table. Like I leave every day thinking, oh my gosh, I wish I had half of the thinking that this person has. And I just love that we are moving out of these like silos and that we're just doing great work for clients wherever it comes from.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Amazing. Well, this is PR & Lattes. So my final question for you is what is your go-to favorite caffeinated beverage that gets you through the day?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

So it's so funny. So I'm not a super coffee person. So I jokingly say that I always order a latte. But I really should be asking for like a lot of warm milk with like a little bit of coffee, but a latte is probably my my thing. I wish I was a bit more of a coffee connoisseur, but I'm kind of like weak on that front.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

No, no, that's fine. I've had somebody say so water. Can I classify water? Like that is fine. Whatever your favorite drink insights? Oh, good. Well, thank you so much, Linda, for being on the podcast today. If people want to connect with you learn more, where can they follow you?

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

So I still like Twitter. I don't know if I'm like, you know if I can say that. So I'm at Apex at@APEXLinda. So if anybody not that I follow a lot of dogs. Because that makes me happy. Yeah. And then on LinkedIn, I mean, anybody can find me on LinkedIn, Linda Andross. And I'm always happy to connect with people. Or I'm happy to you know, if you have a question, and you send me a note through LinkedIn, direct you in any way that I can or whatever, not really on Facebook, I'm sorry, I know I'm a mom, but I'm not on

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Perfect, and we'll make sure to have those links on our description of this episode. Thank you so it. But those are probably the two best places. much, Linda. This has been amazing.

Linda Andross, ABC, MC:

Thank you for having me.

Matisse Hamel-Nelis:

Thank you.

Unknown:

You've been listening to the PR & Lattes podcast. Make sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so you can get notified each week when a new episode drops. You can also subscribe to our weekly newsletter by visiting our website at PRandLattes.com. On the website you'll find our podcast episodes as well as amazing blogs with new ones being posted every Monday morning. And of course make sure to follow us on social on Instagram at @PRAndLattes and on LinkedIn. I've been your host Matisse Hamel-Nelis. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll see you next week with a new latte and guest bye for now.

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Matisse Hamel-Nelis

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